Thursday, July 24, 2008

The God Paradox

Take a look at the number of religions. All of them claim to be correct. Most of them are mutually exclusive. Herein lies a paradox: if there are all different religions, each claiming something a little bit different from the other, how can they all be right? Which is the true religion? Who knows the truth? Does anybody? Are we all blind, shuffling around in mosques, churches, and temples, or is someone going to practice what he or she preaches? Who has God on their side?


More importantly, religion itself must be addressed for what it is. This does not apply solely to Christianity or Islam. It is all-encompassing for religions as a whole. They are fatally flawed. What is their common flaw? Well, actually, their flaw is more physical and closer than you think-- it's you. Humans are the creators and ultimately the destroyers of religion. In order to address what I am sure will be some of your first questions after reading the initial paragraph, let us examine the origins of all religion.


All religions, whether you like it or not, started for the very simple purpose of explaining life's questions that we hadn't figured out yet. Why are we here? What happens when we die? Are we special? These are questions we ask ourselves all the time. We don't know the answer to these questions... yet. How about wind? Can you explain wind? Yes, of course you can. There's even a webpage to explain it for us. But what if I told you that is was just as important and unexplained as the questions mentioned just a few sentences ago? What about fire? Lightning? Oceans? The Moon? The Sun? The way Earth moves through space? These are all undisputed answers to questions that baffled humans just two thousand years ago. Look at how long it took us to answer half of these questions. These are questions of the same level of the modern philosophical ones and yet, we view them as pithy. So have you seen where I am headed with this? Religion answers questions. We created religion to create answers. Turns out science had something to say about religion's answers to why wind blows and water falls from the sky. So who's to say that history's time-honored tradition of patterns won't continue? Why can't science simply do to modern day questions what it did to the questions of yesteryear? The answer to that question is something neither science nor religion will answer.



Religion is not an evil thing. I'm not going to say it is. Religion was a naturally devised method for explaining things, but let's face it: science is and has made serious headway where religion's version of science fell out. Take the order of the galaxy. Do I have to spell it out? Take a good look at a model of our solar system and compare it to one of the Catholic Church's in about the 15th century. Notice a different object in the center? Do you remember how the Church responded? Just because we don't know any better doesn't mean we should stick our heads in the sand and not move forward. We must shed the weight of untruths of religions. Now don't get me wrong; I am not calling for the destruction of religion. I'm merely saying that the statements there are imprecise. What do I want to keep? The most important part: the one all of you will defend. The part that all of you will use as an excuse for justifying belonging to your religion: morals. I believe that the morals that Jesus taught were right. People should show compassion and love for one another. It is essential for the survival of this species. Religion added the aforementioned untruths to gain credibility. Well, I'm sorry, but the reason I don't subscribe to any one particular religion is because of these untruths. I'm fine with worshiping without them. In fact, I relish the fact that we can teach morals to our children in a friendly atmosphere, but I refuse to raise my children in an atmosphere where they will be taught, in addition to morals, that the Earth was just willed by an omnipotent being when the science behind planet-building is quite solid. What of life, you say? I don't pretend to know how life started. But that's more than I can say for the Bible, and truth be told, aside from its morals, it's been pretty much wrong on every superstition. I'd rather hold judgment on the origins of life until science can provide me with a satisfying answer. And it will. It took thousands of years for us to learn how wind, fire, the oceans, lightning, the Moon, and the Sun worked, and who's to say it won't take that long from now to learn how life started? All I'm saying is that I refuse to accept a story that, while its morals are rightly placed, has miscalculated science.



So what about gods? Furthermore, what about this one god, popularly titled "God". It seems that these days, whatever you say will contradict what at least one other person believes, so when you believe and proclaim to a room of other like-minded people that Jesus Christ or some other prophet is the Messiah and that no other alternative exists, don't you think you're going to contradict someone else, just as entitled to their opinion as you? Aren't they, since they are equal to you, just as entitled to contradict you and name another? Who is right? Are you so sure you're right when the other guy is so sure of his own beliefs? God forbid, what if his religion states that if you aren't a part of it and that you'll burn in some dark and fiery place for eternity? Is he wrong? Herein lies why I think that there is no God, let alone any gods. Someone has to be wrong, and yet, we're all correct. Are you so convinced and conceited that you'll say that they're wrong? Step right up; try and knock this God Paradox out of the park, but be warned: you'll be meeting your newly-damned adversary again in a dark fiery place as soon as you do due to your own convictions.




Load your quivers and prepare to shoot holes through my post by commenting. I'll try and respond as much as I can. Thank you for understanding.


- Jonathan

27 comments:

Anonymous said...

but what about everything that points toward the fact that there is a God? The Bible is written by hundreds of different authors, each claiming to have seen God's miracles or Jesus' walk on earth. There are four different counts of Jesus' death on the cross written by four different people. The two most widely practiced religions on earth are focused on a single god, the same God. Don't call the religious narrow minded; don't call us judgemental or hypocritical. You can't brand a group of people based on one person's actions. Don't even call us religious. Christianity isn't so much a religion. It is a relationship, a faith, based on the individual's commmunication with God. Science is theories; nothing is proven. Did you even read my post on Sunday? Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs as long as it is not at the expense of another person's opinions. Seeing is not ALWAYS believing. Some things you have to trust.

Have you even read the Bible? If you had then you would know that many of your assumptions in your blog were false. This is a slap in the face to me after what I wrote on Sunday, and a much unappreciated one at that. My point is not to convert people to christianity or to say that one religion is better than another, but you have no right to "disprove" or criticize a person's beliefs.

And I fully intend to write about God again this Sunday.

Anonymous said...

"We created religion to create answers."

We didn't create religion to create answers, in fact we didn't create religion at all. God will be God even if no human being on earth pays mind to him. You cannot rationalize God. He surpasses all forms of human reason.

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."

Greek philosophers, ancients, theorists, thinkers, naturalists, scientists and all the like have always tried to prove (or debunk) the "God" theory or rather, the whole meaning of man's existence. They have all done this to no avail. There never has been, isn't, and never will be an explanation for God. We as human beings just cannot comprehend him. It's like an infant trying to understand his/her mother. A baby does not have the mental capacity or ability to grasp any idea except its innate desires.

God is a spirit. He transcends every boundary of this earthly realm, so much that he is much too lofty and recondite for us to even understand him! You see, it's just impossible for science or reason to explain God. It's literally an impossibility.

Even if you choose not to believe in God (and yes, it is entirely your own decision and I'm just projecting my ideals right now not trying to reject yours), that's your own choice. The fact is, you can try to understand this whole idea of religion and whatever but you'll be running in circles for the rest of your life. You just have to come with child-like faith and believe. It's that simple. Sometimes I try to reason why Christianity is the "right" religion or why God is real but I just can't. I just simply believe.

I can't sit here and tell you that you're completely wrong and I'm completely right because there's no room for me to say that. It's human nature to try to derive the "origin of the world" and "why we exist." But in truth, you can't. And you just have to go with your gut feeling, towards what's right. Jonathan, there's only one way. Jesus IS the truth, the way and the life and you can't try to understand it. If you give him a chance, he'll prove himself to you ;)

"For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength."

-Erinma

Jonathan said...

Caroline-
Take a chill pill.
I wrote this for all of those unwarrented posts that, frankly, I did not care for just stumbling upon. I felt like my views had their toes stepped on. That's why, for the first time, I decided not to heavily disclaimer my views.
I don't think you read my post closely enough to understand the nature of my argument. I'm not going to rely on texts written nearly 2000 years ago by a bunch of men who believed in magic and miracles. To all them anything else is a lie. They may have been apostles or anything else in this world, but honestly, they would be called this is they were alive in present time. If I were looking for evidence to support my views, why would I got pillaging through the very book that made me realize that religion was a man-made story? I'm sorry you took such a personal offense, but don't think I'm grinding a battle axe for christianity- As I said repeated, this post is about religion and why I think it was created.

Jonathan said...

Erinma-
I certainly hope you read this section;
What of life, you say? I don't pretend to know how life started. But that's more than I can say for the Bible, and truth be told, aside from its morals, it's been pretty much wrong on every superstition. I'd rather hold judgment on the origins of life until science can provide me with a satisfying answer. And it will. It took thousands of years for us to learn how wind, fire, the oceans, lightning, the Moon, and the Sun worked, and who's to say it won't take that long from now to learn how life started?

Something I didn't touch on in the post, but certainly does bother me is the Oral Tradition. The bible has been dated to not even begun to have been written until a full 40 year's after Jesus's death. Since then, can you promise me that facts and figures, accounts and recollections, supposed miracles and other mysteries weren't augmented just a little? What about the thousands of year in between now and then? All of the translations, some actually misconstruing words? The Bible, while it does provide great moral lessons (though I must admit, the New Testament is far nicer than Old) is indeed a VERY old book. Problem is- there is no first edition. We don't actually have and neither can be certain of the original words of the writers of the Bible.
So I turn to science which has given us a great number of answers over the years. I turn to science to give us the answers to the questions that have plagued us since we've been about to philosophize and yes, even begin story telling. I don't believe either of us will get to see science give us a complete answer in our lifetime. But I earnestly put my faith in science to do such.
What I don't understand is why nobody else even wants to look at the origins of religion, the psychology that surrounded it, and to even analyze it. It seems that both you and Caroline just jumped to defend it. All I'm asking is for a little analysizing. A little skepticism (and for the love of god- the devil isn't skepticism- it's freaking science). A step back to look at the big picture.

Jonathan said...

Oh, and I forgot to mention this earlier-
Nobody seems to be able to debunk or atleast explain The God Paradox.
Someone want to explain that one?

erica said...

you have a right to choose what to believe and what not to believe, but you do not have the right to tell people that what they believe in is false and unbelievable. Of course God is unreal. Do you think he would've made himself totally understandable? No. I'm not going to stand here and preach to you and tell you that you have to be Christian, but you should consider this: How did the universe start if there wasn't a higher being? And if there wasn't a God, then what are all these "silly" people doing then?

KoreanKid777 said...

Ok well i guess is my turn to "shoot holes in ur post".
Muslims originate from Muhammad Ali, a regular man who did not even know he was creating his own religion.
Catholicism has one fatal flaw to its reasoning (repenting sins). You can get rid your sins by coming to a priest. The priest can then remove your sins ... a priest who also sinned in his life.
Hinduism has multiple traditions with multiple gods that has changed many times in the course of history to suit their own needs.

Now I'm a little confused about the part where u teach children in a "friendly atmosphere". Is there such a thing in this world? Plenty of people acknowledge the ten commandments but do they even care enough to follow them?

I admit science is truthful in most ways but to say science can prove EVERYTHING is an absolute statement in which not a single person can disprove. Please explain to me how a man in a wheelchair can suddenly stand up after being prayed over. Please explain to me how I witnessed a deaf person regain his hearing. The doctors were so confused because his eardrum was disconnected but he could hear well. Please tell me how every single cell and every single atom knew exactly what to do in order to create life on Earth. It's statistically enormous.

Not a single person can disprove God. In order to do that, you would have to die, see what's in the afterlife or what's not, then come back to life and tell everyone about it. Are scientists able to do that?

The heaven and hell concept seems to bother you a bit (sorry if it doesnt but might as well explain it anyway). If a God loves you so much, why would he send you to hell? Well the answer is very simple. It was YOUR choice. Knowing that God would send you to hell and sinning anyway puts you, you and yourself at fault. "So Christians are pure right?" Wrong. We are all still flawed humans yet the people who strive towards God with all their heart will ultimately find their place with Him.

I can sit here and type all day about how I think your post is wrong but the fact is that this probably won't change your mind. In fact this will probably raise more questions. I would just like to say that by posting this, you've just painted a target on your chest while also knowing fully that someone will try to shoot you. So I ask you, why post something that so obviously will meet resistance?

Jonathan said...

Erica-
I think you too need to reread the section I illuminated for Erinma. The answers aren't here yet, but they will ultimately answer and uproot the answers all religions have been passing out for years.
Don't take that kind of self righteous tone either because you think I'm telling you what to believe. I think I've very clearly shown what I believe, the facts surrounding it, and a way to take a step back from our everyday lives to reexamine religion. Shouldn't you challenge your beliefs? Then don't complain.

Anonymous said...

Okay, let's take God out of the picture for a second. Matter of fact, let's take Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and every other "mad-made" religion out of the picture. In the same respect that you say no ONE religion is correct in explaining the origin of life or God, then why do you think science is right in construing the mysteries of the universe? Why do we as human beings believe that our knowledge and thinking is right? There's an infinite range of theories and speculations to model and delineate the movement of the sun, the discharge of lighting, or the flow of wind. Do calculus, reproducible experiments, and visual/reasonable observations have an absolute veracity? No! Science is OUR interpretation of this physical and material world, and just because man's scope considers these deductions academically sound, doesn't mean that in some other body of truths they really are.

Ptolemy, Aristotle, Newton, and Kepler all thought they were right in their own theories and they did have followers and believers of their scientific endeavors. Is it Ptolemy's fault that he thought the Earth was the center of the universe? It made sense to him! Looking back, his paradigm was pretty distorted but that only because he didn't have the means (scientific history, equipment, facilities) to FULLY understand the "truth." Modern science claims to have demystified many long-held questions of this physical world but who's to say that a group of thinkers in the next 1,000 years won't come along with highly advanced technology and disprove all our ideas?

Moreover, as a human being, you can attest to the fact that there are many things of this world that just simply
cannot be explained by science. Can human reasoning explain emotions? Why do we feel love, hate, or elation? Can human reasoning explain gravity, dark matter, time or the speed of light? These things are quite intangible(and science doesn't operate in the intangible or eternal realm), but yet these things certainly exist.
Science falls short in a surprisingly broad spectrum of areas. It has severe limitations and there is no "ONE" answer to anything. There is no reason why one should solely rely on science, Jonathan, none at all...

Viv said...

If there really is a god does that really give an explanation for why we're all here either?
Is it for his entertainment?
Why did he will us into existence into a world of joy and pain instead of just having nothing at all?

And Hell? Where exactly does one cross the line from being placed in strawberry fields forever to a deep fiery pit? Would God forgive a grave "sinner" who repented, but leave behind the Hindu or even atheist who lived a truly moral life? And if He would forgive them, why are we so stuck on religion anyway?

And I think the point of Jonathan's post was that by saying that one religion is right, you're implying that the others are wrong. He just took it up a notch to say that they're all wrong.

God can never be proved or disproved, not because there will never be an argument that logically and reasonably proves or disproves him, but because we would not let that logic sway our opinions. Not any one argument can do it for everybody at least. We won't be able to change what the heart believes simply because of reason either way, we are human after all. So I guess I'd just like it if we toned down the religious element in our posts.

-Viv

Jonathan said...

June-
Thank you for the lesson on differing religions. I must point out on tinsy inaccuracy though- I don't believe Muslims believe a very famous boxer as their Messiah.
I must ask though- did you just imply that churches were not "friendly atmospheres?" I'm not sure if you understood that that's what I meant. Perhaps you were confused.
On the subject of miracles, I must say I am not sold. I have never first hand witnessed a miracle, nor am I sure that most of them are doctored. The human body is resilient and a magnificent work of millions and millions of years. So while medicine is a seemingly near-perfect science, I assure you, there are secrets the human body has yet to reveal. I want to believe that you witness a deaf man regain his hearing, I honestly do. But as a scientist, I can't help but wonder if there were a mistake made along the way. Humans are not perfect- you've even established that. A simple misdiagnosis could have been the cause for a lot of confusion. You can cite example after example where prayer seems to have helped some one, but I promise you, the comparison between those helped by the pray and those not yields a very large gap.
Let's put religion aside for a minute and examine Heaven and Hell. I think you'd benefit greatly just by clicking on the title of this post. It's linked to a YouTube video of George Carlin speaking on Religion. I think the first minute and a half are highly relevant to God, Heaven and Hell.
Now your last few sentences brought to my attention the disturbing realization that I maybe shot for my evaluation for religion. Now come on. Death threats because I don't believe the same way as the church? What is this- the Crusades? The Inquisition?

KoreanKid777 said...

1. Lol i realized i made the mistake but i was too lazy to change/delete the post
2. i reread and yes i misinterpreted it.
3.u didnt answer the part about every cell and every atom.
4.i didnt mean it literally when i said u were going to get shot >.>
5.this is getting out of hand. this blog was meant to keep us together as friends. this is starting to pull us apart. so for now lets all stop arguing and accept that we have different beliefs

Jonathan said...

Erinma-
You dance around one point; Humans are imperfect. Now if you were coming from the scientific standpoint that there is always room for improvement by means of mutation, sure- I'd agree. But I suspect you're comming from the stance of christianity and that we are imperfect in comparison to God. If you'll notice, I did point out that we don't have everything down, and we're constantly correcting ourselves. Wind as a supernatural force? Or wind as a force of nature derived by the heating and cooling of air causing movement of air particles? Ptolemy was wrong. Einstein might also be wrong. I'm not saying they were right, but look- in time, the answer was yielded (not by means of religion, christian or otherwise) but through science. I think we have seen that the creation of the universe is a complicated phenomenon. However, something that we've noticed is the Doppler Shift- potentially the sign that there was a Big Bang. I don't even pretend to know if or how there was a Big Bang, but I do know that Genesis mentions nothing that explains this shift.
While science maybe the interpretation of our world through our senses, religion is basically our interpretation through our minds and imagination. Science hasn't been based on religious ideas- the core of science is observation.
As far as we know today, emotions are based on carefully calculated releases of hormones. It does describe all the natural phenomena that you described, in the best was that we can explain something from one individual to another, certainly no less adequate than how christians explain god or the resurrection or Muhammad's little chat with god and an angel named Gabriel.
Finally, if science has fallen short on your expectation on answers, that is the fault of our own education system for not pushing science hard enough. Answers to a lot of questions aren't yet answered, and everytime you think and reason, you add more to the list, but why reject putting faith in something science since has proven itself a lot in our lives. There's a whole let less prayer and faith in science, and a whole lot more facts and reasoning.

Jonathan said...

June-
I do not hold any of your typographical or interpreting mistakes against you.
As for the "cell thing", it is indeed difficult to wrap our heads around. Science doesn't yet have an answer for that- but will soon, I suspect. I already answered all that in my original post.
And finally, I do not believe any of this is out of hand. It is healthy to talk with others and challenge not only others, but yourself. If you feel that you do not want to be a part of this discussion, remove yourself, but I will gladly discuss this topic ad nauseam with anybody else willing. I'm glad that I can converse freely with my friends.

Jonathan said...

Viv-
First of all, I want to thank you for your opinions but I must point to the last paragraph and shake my head. Why does nobody have faith in science? Why it was only a century and a half ago that we thought that we had invented everything that could be invented. That kind of comment is to say that we have come up with every kind of god testing experiment that could be conceived. Humans, glorious animals that we are, will ultimately find an experiment that will answer every last question that religion attempts to explain.
As to the last point you bring up, I whole-heartedly agree. I am willing to keep my views and facts to myself or atleast to a minimum if everyone else is. It's the least I could do.

Anonymous said...

Jonathan, what was the point of this post again? To argue? Just wondering. Because it seems like you are waiting for someone to disagree with you so that you can shoot a retort back. But whatever, you're still one of my good friends and I'm not mad even if we have very polar belief systems...

And I am only responding to this because you advertised it on Facebook...and my religion is who I am so I don't really know how to tone it down (??)..
So yeah.

Anonymous said...

I find it just as easy to say something is "the work of god" as it is to say "science hasn't found the answer for that yet".

Jonathan said...

Erinma-
I love you, but don't insult me. Read what I told June. This was intended as a discussion point. Honestly- I was put off with a lot of the christian talk on FaceBook and blogs. I wasn't so offended by the words (though telling me that I was was wrong and that Jesus is the only right answer upset me), but mostly that there was no disclaimer. I fell right into those posts, not know what I had gotten myself into. So this hurt me, since I've very very often only posted my view under heavily disclaimer as not to offend anyone. I didn't want to offend anyone here either, but I did want bring a little bit of science to the discussion too.
As I said above, I will gladly discuss, not argue, with anyone.
As for why I'm responding to each and everyone of you, I think it is only appropriate. You comment because you want to voice your opinion and be listened to. Do you want to be listened to, or just be heard. I think I owe you and everyone that much.

Anonymous said...

Hey, June.
I read your Heaven/Hell paradox, and being the assertive jerk that I am, couldn't help but pick apart your whole post. Do pardon the sarcasm; pent up teenage angst and all that. So, here goes:

Now I'm a little confused about the part where u teach children in a "friendly atmosphere". Is there such a thing in this world? Plenty of people acknowledge the ten commandments but do they even care enough to follow them?

Oh my. What’s this? Is your faith in people, who are modeled after the most high God himself, so weak that you do not think there are ANY believers left? Are you so rare, so special, as to be the only faithful follower left? How arrogant is that? It’s almost as if you think yourself better than everyone else, we pitiful fools who know not what we do. And I think there’s some sort of rule against that.

I admit science is truthful in most ways but to say science can prove EVERYTHING is an absolute statement in which not a single person can disprove. Please explain to me how a man in a wheelchair can suddenly stand up after being prayed over. Please explain to me how I witnessed a deaf person regain his hearing. The doctors were so confused because his eardrum was disconnected but he could hear well. Please tell me how every single cell and every single atom knew exactly what to do in order to create life on Earth. It's statistically enormous.

To say that God can do, see, and know everything is an equally absolute, non-disprovable statement. Please explain to me why there is war, sickness, pain, hatred, and death, and yet you remain absolutely certain that God is there. And do not even get me started on Satan, because God created him as well. Therefore, is not God the root of all evil? As for the miracle of creation, no one is truly certain about how old the Earth is. For all we know, there could have been infinite time for mistakes and correction in the formation of all things. Synchronicity is a “miraculous” thing, is it not?

Not a single person can disprove God. In order to do that, you would have to die, see what's in the afterlife or what's not, then come back to life and tell everyone about it. Are scientists able to do that?

How very astute. Come back when you can PROVE God.

The heaven and hell concept seems to bother you a bit (sorry if it doesnt but might as well explain it anyway). If a God loves you so much, why would he send you to hell? Well the answer is very simple. It was YOUR choice. Knowing that God would send you to hell and sinning anyway puts you, you and yourself at fault. "So Christians are pure right?" Wrong. We are all still flawed humans yet the people who strive towards God with all their heart will ultimately find their place with Him.

This seems something of a paradox to me. If God has a Divine Plan, in which He can know, from the beginning of time, of the need to sacrifice His Son in order to save you, His unique little snowflake, how does this provide for free choice? If He knows all and is all, then surely He knew from the beginning how many of His Great Creations would turn against Him, and subsequently be sent down to burn and be tormented and weep and gnash teeth and all that jazz. Does that mean that He created a whole race, simply for the few that would turn out to be Good? That’s favoritism, if ever I saw it. Or maybe sadism. So Christians are not perfect. How come they get the get-out-of-jail-free card, then? Why is their way of repentance so much better than that of, say, the Jews? Didn’t they come first? And wasn’t Jesus a Jew? How come they can “strive towards God with all their hearts,” and yet they’re still screwed? They worship the same God. They are seeking a place with him. Why are you oh-so-much better than them? Because your Holy Book says so? Wake up and smell the irony – everyone has a Holy Book that tells them they are right. You are all the same in your belief that Yours Is The Right Way. While you’re proving God, go ahead and prove your Book while you’re at it.
So it all comes back to the paradox thing. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. What can you do? Get a taller soapbox and preach louder than the competition? Have fun with that. I’ll be discreetly snerking over in the corner with the other Pastafarians. (btw, do you have a sense of humor? Check out Pastafarianism, just to kind of see how ridiculous beliefs can appear to those outside of them. The premise of the religion is the same as yours: an omnipotent being willed the Earth into existence and governs it's people. The being just happens to be a Flying Spaghetti Monster.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Uo5DQTtzc

Anonymous said...

See that makes more sense, the fact that you were put off by the Christian talk. For a second there I thought you were just doing this for the sake of arguing, so forgive me.

I guess it is offensive when people try to shove their beliefs in your face, all claiming to have the "right" one. This was a good post because we now all understand how very different we all are from one other, and it allows us to appreciate that. I don't look down on anyone if they don't believe the things I do, and I don't think anyone else should do that. I would never insult you Jonathan, and I don't want you to take my words as such. But I'm never one to try to get into a one-sided argument; believe me, I've considered you point of view and I do hear you out on a lot if not all your arguments.

To all: Let's save the fire for the firefighter, the trash for the trash man, and the God&Science debate for the philosopher.

Peace outtttt.

Anonymous said...

This blog is not a place where you can criticize other people's beliefs and call names. For example, the fact that erica was called "self righteous" was uncalled for and simply rude. She has every right to express her own opinion without being trashed.

And as for Logan, what are you trying to do???!!! Tear June apart? Have you forgotten that these are actual people with feelings on this blog? I have never witnessed such rude behavior towards an individual. I believe that all people on this blog, including Johnathan, June, Logan, and myself are entitled to their own opinion, but for you to pick apart someone in such a fashion is hurtful and simply unnecessary. You tell him to prove God? If there is no God, then why is Christianity the largest religion on the Earth? And nowhere in June's comment did I see that he was "arrogant enough" to call himself the only Christian left. I am appalled by this behavior. There is no room for your cruelty here.

Anonymous said...

caroline, ur just as self righteus as erica if you're saying that. she dosen't have the right to tell him what to do or not.
As for picking arguements apart- june did the same thing! he ttly picked apart johnathan's responce w/ numbers and evrythin. "chill out", like he said

Anonymous said...

Why, hello there Caroline. How nice of you to feel the urge to comment on a post not even intended for you. Are you, perhaps, so offended by it because I struck a nerve? I can completely understand if you are – it just so happens that I become offended most every time people mention Jesus or God, especially in the know-it-all fashion that is prevalent in “believers” these days. I am simply stating my opinion. Perhaps my opinion is rather cynical and sarcastic, and it is at odds with your own beliefs, but am I not equally entitled to this opinion, as you are your own?

Jonathan said...

Erinma- (or so I think)
Thank you and I am glad we came upon a compromise. I do however want to add that it is fun to pretend to be philosopher, especially at this age where we try out many positions. I also believe discussion and debate to be stimulating and productive. I do hope we can agree on that and that maybe, in the future, can sanction more philosophical or ethical debates or discussions on other topics.
Caroline-
While I was indeed flabbergasted by Logan's post, I must admit, she did more that I in that she actually posted a disclaimer. You absolutely must give her credit for that.
You have your own beliefs and I respect them. You have a funny way of respecting mine. It's just a fact of life, and frankly, I do not care for the fact you intend to post all about god again this Sunday. I believe the general consensus is that we were going to try and tone down the religion. If you feel the need to proselytize, go ahead, but I and quite a few of our other readers won't appreciate your one track mind. Try and broaden the topic list.
I don't want to have you as an enemy, Caroline. I really hope we can bury the hatchet tonight.
Logan-
You wrote a book! While I thank you for your support in this discussion, I must admit, this was a brazen and brash. Hopefully we can all learn from your post and be a little more civil in the future.
Anonymous-
I appreciate your efforts. Though, perhaps I did come off a little too strong. Though, I still stand by what I said.

KoreanKid777 said...

logan, i have no idea where u struck me as "the only christian left". i think u misunderstood because i totally accept that everybody has different beliefs but can you please tone down with the insults? that seemed a little unnecessary and it made caroline very unhappy =(

anyway about the war, hatred, etc. they are mostly our own choices in life. God gave us the free will to live our life on earth. if He took away everything, u can kiss ur freedom good bye because then He would be dictating every single thing going on.

as for proving God, please disprove there isn't one.

you seem to think that christians think they are better than everyone. no. we are just as normal as the next guy/girl. Judaism has beliefs that there are many paths to salvation though in John 14:6 God states He is the ONLY way. a bit contradictory no? and if there were many paths to God, did Jesus have to die on the cross? of course not. he didnt have to do it at all. but he did it anyway to show his love for everyone.

The bible has been found to have no historical errors. Some books on this are:
New Evidence That Demands
The Case for Christ
The Signiture of God.
Archaeology also supports the bible. They found the Dead Sea Scrolls, they found chariots at the bottom of the Red Sea, and they found 25,000 other finds.
The bible was written by different people over a span of different countries in different times. They wrote very detailed prophesies and all of them were fulfilled except the one on Judgement Day. for example, psalms predicted jesus would be crucified and this was 800 years before crucifixion was ever used.

and so it comes to the paradox. you're right, i'm wrong, i'm right, you're wrong. ur pretty much doing what ur telling everyone else to do. "preaching louder and getting a taller soapbox". so i ask u once again to cut the insults a bit and give a little respect to what people believe because opinions are opinions and u dont need to bite at people to get them out.

Anonymous said...

Seriously, can you guys please chill out? Jonathan may have come off a little strong but it isn't fun to read about how great God or Jesus is all the time. The posts here and Facebook notes have become a little preachy and self righteous. Maybe you guys who wrote them don't think so, but many of the readers do and isn't that what matters? I personally do not consider the Bible as truth, but I don't go around talking about it all the time. And if I did write about it all the time, Christians would comment like crazy on it. I used to read this blog all the time, but I don't think I'm going to anymore. I come on here to read about my friends lives, not to get preached to. Honestly, it just makes me feel distanced from the writers. Which sucks because they're my friends. I'm keeping this anonymous because I don't really feel comfortable talking about this. Let's just tone down the religion posts and forget about everything.

Even from a Christian standpoint, reading about God all the time is boring. So let's bring some variety back into this blog.

Anonymous said...

And what if God was a Flying Spaghetti Monster? The theory is equally valid (just a tad less narcissistic) as a zombie carpenter, a three-headed dog or anything else humans have come up with over the years.

I don't know if there is a God, but if he does exist it isn't the one you pray to.

And he is either omnipotent, benevolent, or neither. The world is a messed up place; we are not the brainchildren of an omnipotent and benevolent God.

RAmen. May you all be touched by His Noodly Appendage.

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